Episode 19: Rachel Roche, Founder of Roche Legal

Jack Newton:

The emergence of COVID-19 has forced the legal industry to rapidly undergo a fundamental transformation. I’m Jack Newton, CEO and co-founder of Clio, the world’s leading cloud-based legal software provider. In each episode of Daily Matters, we’ll explore what this new normal means for law firms, how legal professionals can find success while working remotely, and how lawyers can best serve their clients during this unprecedented situation.

Today’s guest—joining us all the way from York, England—is Rachel Roche, founder of Roche Legal. In 2018, Rachel was awarded the Law Society’s Prestigious Sole Practitioner of the year accolade, and the success was followed in 2019 with two more awards for excellence in private client work. Rachel, thanks so much for making the time to join us this evening.

Rachel Roche:

Thank you for having me.

Jack Newton:

So first of all, Rachel, how are you and your family doing?

Rachel Roche:

We’re doing really well, which is great. We’re very lucky that we’re able to work from home, everyone’s healthy, obviously we’ve got the utmost respect for people who are continuing to work on the front line and those who are in not as fortunate a position as us, but everyone here is great, thank you.

Jack Newton:

I’m so proud to heat that.

Rachel Roche:

What about yourself?

Jack Newton:

Thanks for asking, me and my family are well, we’re healthy, which is the most important thing these days, and feel very lucky that both myself and the broader Clio team are in a position to work from home. And to add to what is a difficult overall climate from a humanitarian standpoint, we’ve actually got some beautiful weather in Vancouver this week to help offset some of the flood of bad news I feel like we’re inundated with. So you can at least go for a walk and try to get away from it all for a minute or two at least.

Rachel Roche:

It’s the same here, it’s beautiful weather, so it helps.

Jack Newton:

Good. And tell me a little bit about some of the personal changes you’ve experienced as a result of COVID-19, and most of our listeners are state side, so curious, you can maybe just give us a broader context in terms of what is the COVID-19 situation in England more broadly, and what kind of personal impacts has it had for you?

Rachel Roche:

So just two hours ago, it was announced that lockdown here is going to be extended for at least another three weeks. So we’re another three weeks, at least they’re saying, I suspect it will go on for longer. Everyone is working from home where possible, we’re going out for an hour a day for some exercise, we’re allowed to go shopping for essential items and to help anybody who’s vulnerable. For me, that means I’m just being at home, most of the time. I obviously go out to walk the dog, I go and get some food when I need it, and I have been going into the office once a week to check on the post, but we’ve always been set up to work remotely.

So in terms of the working practices, we’ve just moved to our desks at home and it’s not really impacted us from a practical point of view. But of course, with everything going on, you do worry about the wider economy, are the clients still going to be willing to engage with you remotely by video call? Most of them are, some of them—obviously this is a brand new world for them—they’re not used to dealing with solicitors or any business really over the internet using a computer or laptop. So yes, it’s like I’ve been saying to lots of people: it’s one thing being very well set up to work from home and being able to be nimble as a small firm and adaptable, but it’s quite another then to see the reactions of the wider economy and how that’s going to bounce back after all of this.

Jack Newton:

I agree. Tell us a bit more about your firm, Rachel, in terms of how many folks are in it and what practice areas you’re focused on.

Rachel Roche:

So my practice area at Roche Legal is private clients. So that’s typically wills, trusts, tax planning. We deal with a lot of clients who are vulnerable. The elderly—we look at issues of mental capacity in the context of will making and applications to the court of protection for what we call here as deputy applications. So that’s when somebody may have lost capacity and we need to have somebody appointed by the court to manage their financial affairs or make specific decisions about their health and welfare. We also specialize in missing people. So that’s typically applications for declarations of death when somebody’s been missing for seven years or more, or dealing with a new law that came into effect last summer, which is applying to the court of protection for somebody to be appointed guardian over the affairs of somebody who’s been missing for 90 days or more.

So that obviously has really wide-ranging implications. Before the law on that was passed last year, there was nothing you could do in respect to managing the affairs of a missing person, unless they’d been gone for seven years or more, at which point the only option was then to declare them dead legally. So that’s had a huge impact for the 250,000 people who go missing every year in England. So that’s a snapshot of what we do day-to-day.

We’re seeing a rise in people worrying about things like wills and powers of attorney in the current climate. Lots of people thinking that it’s been on their list at some point, but now it needs to get to the top of the list and people need to update their wills or make wills if they’ve not got them already. Lots of requests for certified copies of powers of attorney as well, people worried about getting poorly, being ill and then going into hospital for instance and not having their documentation readily available for their attorneys to start managing their financial affairs, if decisions like that need to be made for them whilst they’re unable to make them for themselves. So that’s what we do. So I suppose we’re here to support those clients in the worry state that they’re in at the moment.

Jack Newton:

Tell us a little bit more about this will writing, and powers of attorney, and some of the shifts, and I’m sure maybe urgent demands and requests that you’ve had on that front over the last month or so. I know many of your clients are elderly and at high risk of contracting COVID-19, or maybe already have COVID-19. There’s a level of urgency and maybe even panic, I’m sure, that you’re seeing in the broader market as a result of COVID-19. Can you walk us through what you’re seeing and how it’s changed your practice and maybe even how your team has been able to evolve and change how they respond over the last month?

Rachel Roche:

Mm-hmm. So being a niche private client practice, we do typically deal with a lot of clients who are vulnerable, who are also in the high-risk category of contracting COVID-19, and we do have clients that have contracted COVID-19 and two have died. So we are doing what we can to support those clients and their families through what must be an incredibly difficult time.

In terms of the practicalities of signing documents, this is something that I’ve been talking about for many years, but this is a great opportunity for it to come to the forefront of lawmakers, which is digitally signing documents and getting documents witnessed remotely. So at the moment, in the UK for a will to be valid, it needs to be signed by the will maker, the testator, and witnessed by two independent people. So in the usual run of events, we would ask the clients to come in, or we would send the documentation out to them, for them to arrange their own signatures.

I would really like to see a change in the law to allow things to be witnessed remotely, because obviously that has health benefits at the moment, and ensures that everyone’s adhering to social distancing, even better that documents can be signed electronically, but I do think we’re a long way off that.

The advice and guidance that we’re giving to clients at the moment is we need to sign things in the usual way, but they need to maintain the social distancing guidelines that are in place here in the UK, which is to keep at least two meters apart. We released the guidance last week about this, and it is as simple as that—just make sure that you’re all in the vicinity to be able to see the testator sign, but then move away from the document, wear gloves, use different pens, and that’s all we can really do at the moment.

I think it’s fine to witness documents through the window, if that’s practical, but then you still got to actually still sign the same document. So you’ve still got the practical situation of then passing the document through the window or leaving it in the porch and having the person come and get the document, take it outside.

We’ve seen situations where wills have been signed on the bonnets of cars. I’ve done that years ago anyway, for clients that are not able to physically get out of the car and come into the office. So we’ve been doing that for a long time anyway, but obviously people are very, very worried, and I think it’s our job when we are putting their minds at rest, not only by creating the legal documentation to do that, but also to give them some reassurance that when they’re arranging their signatures, they can do so safely.

Jack Newton:

So are we going to see, as we’ve seen drive-through COVID-19 testing in places like Hong Kong and South Korea, we’ll maybe see drive-through wills and estates planning and signing?

Rachel Roche:

I think we’re saying that here. We’re saying that here already, the only difficulty is, of course, even with maintaining social distancing, if you’ve got very vulnerable and high risk clients, is it better to… Obviously the ideal solution would be for them to be able to do this entirely remotely and/or electronically.

And I think lawmakers in this country need to move with the times. I know in France, they are about to or they have implemented electronic signatures for powers of attorney. Other countries have been doing this for a long time. I think we just need to have a process in place and get it done. And, hopefully, something positive can come out of this situation. There’s obviously lots of positives will hopefully come out of this, but hopefully one thing will be to make finding documents and getting it witnessed a lot more convenient, especially for those who are vulnerable.

Jack Newton:

Are you seeing any indication that Parliament is thinking about legislation or anything else that might evolve? What are the requirements? It does feel like we’re being forced into, both in the UK, but the same restrictions around physical signatures and witnesses applies in both the United States and Canada. These all seem like rules and regulations around document signature that are really out of step with both the technology that’s available today and the practicalities of the COVID-19 world. Are you seeing anything that you’d consider promising on the legislation side of things?

Rachel Roche:

Yeah. There were consultations going on three or four years ago about electronic signatures to powers of attorney, and hopefully that will be revisited now. And I have spoken to the Law Society and I’m aware that they are in talks with the Solicitors Regulation Authority and the Ministry of Justice to bring things up-to-date. The Wills Act in this country dates from 1837. So there’s a long way to go, but hopefully this is a good opportunity and the impetus needed to get things moving.

Jack Newton:

Absolutely. You answered part of this in your previous answer, but I’m curious. When you’re looking at the unique needs that your clients and their families are going through right now in relation to the COVID-19 crisis—over and above some of the logistics of getting signatures in a safe way and getting witnesses in a safe way—what else are you seeing in terms of what your clients and their families are going through, and what are you doing to try to best support them through those challenges?

Rachel Roche:

Obviously we need to be as sympathetic as possible to each individual situation, because every client’s going through this in a different way and will be affected in a different way. I think for our clients, they’re looking for reassurance that we can produce documentation in a timely fashion, which we would do in any way, of course, but I think they’ve got extra reassurance about that.

And we’ve been really seeing other types of guidance as well to try and help people navigate this really uncertain time. So for example, a week or so ago, I received a couple of inquiries from people who had relatives in hospital and they were wanting some guidance and advice from us in terms of what we have here, DNR, do-not-resuscitate decisions and how they are able to be involved or not as the case may be in those decisions that can be made by the hospital when somebody isn’t able to make that decision or have a DNR signed by themselves.

So these are really, really emotive situations that people are going through. And even if you’re not directly affected at the moment by COVID-19, we’re having clients who are very worried for themselves and their family about what could happen. And so, I think we’re trying to just bring a more human touch to how we deal with people, and I think clients are becoming a little bit more open to their legal advice that they get a bit more friendly sometimes as well. Because I think sometimes it can be very, very suited and booted and there’s tick boxes and forms to fill out and information to get, but I think we’ve had the best response from clients when we’ve actually said, “We’re all looking at working from home at the moment. It’s a little bit different, just bear with us, we understand what you’re going through, or we’ve been there,” or whatever.

I think it’s a nice opportunity for lawyers to be really human about this and to show that we’re just regular people like them, like our clients. And I think that’s always been the case, but that is the perception still. I don’t know what it’s like in the US, in Canada, but here, I think there is still a perception that lawyers are a bit stuffy, but this is a good opportunity for people to just be a bit more human and kind about everybody’s circumstances.

Jack Newton:

I think it’s a great point, and I’ve had a few of my guests on this show comment about the fact that this has been actually a really great opportunity for them to show their more human side as part of the conversations they’re having. They’re in their home environment, they might have their kids walk in, they’re not necessarily dressed in a three-piece suit. I think a lot of barriers and a lot of the pageantry of the high-end AAA office with the marble floors and the oak cases and all of that go away and people are able to be more real and more connected. And I’ve talked to several lawyers that have commented on—exactly as you put it—being more human and maybe more empathetic, more kind, has been something that they’ve found to be a really rewarding part of navigating this crisis.

Rachel Roche:

And I can totally echo that, I think it’s really nice.

Jack Newton:

I’m curious too, among your client base, Rachel, you’d maybe expect that it’s mostly folks that are senior citizens. I think what’s interesting with COVID-19 is despite popular perception, this is a disease that’s impacting folks that are younger. Earlier this week, in fact, I interviewed David Lat, the former editor-in-chief of Above the Law, that many people followed his infection with COVID-19, and thankfully he’s well into his recovery now, but he’s in his 40s, a two-time New York Marathon finisher, a fit guy does not fit, I think, what many of us have as the prototype for a COVID-19 patient. I’m curious, are you seeing an uptick in calls from people in their 40s, 50s, in advance of worrying about contracting COVID-19? What are you seeing in terms of where people’s mindsets are around estate planning, power of attorney planning from younger people?

Rachel Roche:

Well, from what I’m seeing on my own for the age ranges of clients who are contacting us, hasn’t really changed. But I think, as a young firm ourselves, we typically attract clients who are maybe a little bit younger anyway, because we lived implementing technology right from the beginning. And so that’s typically going to attract clients who are more used to dealing with lawyers by video call, or telephone, or whatever it might be.

We’re certainly seeing clients worry more across the board. And if we get clients in their 40s and 50s, they may have children, and so they’re typically more worried about their children and their wider family, rather than themselves, I find, and I think that’s just normal. But I think for us there’s not been a marked change in the age range or the types of clients that are contacting us, but I don’t know if that’s the same across the board here in the UK.

Jack Newton:

As you mentioned, you may be already skewed a bit on the younger side to start with. So let’s shift gears for a few minutes, Rachel. On top of running a very successful law firm, you’ve also co-authored a book which is a guide to setting up a law firm that’s due for release later this year in September. Can you tell us a bit more about the book?

Rachel Roche:

Yeah. So myself and another solicitor, Darren, who I met on Twitter a couple of years ago, we are writing a book commissioned by Law Society Publishing. It’s about setting up a law firm, a practical guide to offering legal services—very excited about it. There isn’t a resource like this available in the UK market at the moment, so that’s really great use for people who are looking to embark on their own law firm journey.

We are nearly finished. I’m actually finishing writing the chapter on health and wellbeing, which seems a little bit ironic in the midst of a global pandemic. And we had a conference call with Law Society Publishing a week or so ago, and we will be adding an additional chapter to do with COVID and how we think things might change after this, things that might go back to so-called normal, but other things that will change forever. So I think that will be a very interesting chapter to get our teeth into, but we are hoping to still have the publishing date, September this year, and it’s a very exciting time to be involved in a publication like this.

Jack Newton:

Absolutely. And it’s such a time of rapid innovation. I agree with you, it’s a really exciting time. And having recently finished writing my first book, congratulations on getting close to the finish line with that, and it sounds like there’ll be some really topical topics in that book. So I’m curious: Not to spoil what will be in the book, but I’m curious if you can outline what some of the changes that you think will be enduring changes in the legal profession and how lawyers practice beyond this immediate crisis.

Rachel Roche:

The obvious one is the use of technology and how that’s going to be rolled out in some of the bigger firms, because I think it is easier for younger and smaller firms to be nimble and adapt to change, but they probably already have, like us, the capabilities of being able to deal with clients remotely. For instance, we have an online platform here exclusively to take instructions online for wills and powers of attorney. And that’s quite unusual in this country, because of the rules and regulations about taking instructions in that way and signing documents and so on and so forth.

But I think this is a real benefit for law firms, because not only will it spur firms on to use technology in better ways, but I think the public now are being encouraged to use technology themselves, because not only is it a barrier potentially for the firms not to have implemented that technology, but for the public themselves to get used to a new way of working, which ultimately I think benefits everybody, thus as traveling cost, pollution levels will drop, people can spend more time with their family because they’re not traveling 30 minutes each day to go for a meeting. So I think it’s a really good opportunity to bring everybody into a new way of thinking, not just for law firms.

Jack Newton:

I think there’s so much opportunity for long-lasting change here, both at the legal professional level, as well as just everyone in terms of the lasting impacts we’re going to see from this crisis. And I do think that when you look at the structural impacts of what will happen with legal, and you think about the fact that there can be massive overhead reductions—in terms of not having to pay for that high-end downtown office space, and you can have people leveraging work-from-home environments, and you can be minimizing other forms of overhead and administrative costs by leveraging technology—there’s a hope that this could actually have a dramatic impact on access to justice and how people think about accessing lawyers in the first place. So I share your optimism on that front.

So first of all, I want to congratulate you on the wide range of awards and recognition you’ve received for being forward thinking, and embracing technology, and being really innovative in how you deliver your legal services. The Law Society of England and Wales, for example, said this about you, “Rachel truly gives us a glimpse into the future of sole practice. By using technology, providing new ways of doing things, she manages to both address a legal need and provide a valuable and accessible service to clients.”

So high praise from many in terms of how you think about innovation, how you think about solving legal needs and servicing your clients. I’d love for you just to walk through for a few minutes, some of the ways that you’ve used technology and embraced innovation in your firm, and maybe also what your mindset is and what you encourage from a mindset perspective from your colleagues to drive that innovation.

Rachel Roche:

I think for me, the two key words there are communication and flexibility. I think clients have different expectations, firstly, when it comes to how they want to be communicated with and how frequently, and also just being flexible in the ways that we work. If I’m honest, I don’t necessarily think we’re doing anything that’s super innovative that no one’s doing. I think we’re just moving with the times, and I think lawyers perhaps have the reputation that they’re a bit stuck in their ways and things have to be done a certain way because they’ve always been done that way, whereas my mindset is very much how can we make this better? Always, how can we make this better? Can we do this a little bit quicker? Can we make this easier for the client?

And so, I think that might have given us a little bit of an edge so far. It’s a difficult question to answer really, because I don’t know also what the US market is like in comparison to the UK market, and it might be perhaps the UK is very far behind or we’re about the same.

Jack Newton:

My personal observation is from a technology perspective, it’s about on par in terms of moving towards deregulating the legal market ahead of where the US is. But I would say from technology adoption and what qualifies as innovation, my perspective is that there’s about equal footing. And as you pointed out, I know it’s a big question, but it’s also maybe easily answered. I heard you say it’s really about focusing on the client and working backward from there and everything else follows. It’s not necessarily about thinking, “How do I do groundbreaking first-in-the-world, legal innovation?” It’s really thinking about client needs and working back from there.

Rachel Roche:

And obviously technology is great in forms of huge part of what we do here and what a lot of modern forward-thinking firms are doing. But for me, innovation isn’t necessarily just about using technology, it’s just about thinking a little bit differently, and perhaps thinking a little bit more from the client’s perspective and to always try and improve the way that you do things, to make things more streamlined, to make things easier—not just for the client actually, but also for us as lawyers working in practice.  Can we shave a bit of time off the way that we process that piece of information, for example? Because ultimately it’ll benefit the client, we’ll be able to produce the work faster, more efficiently and more accurately.

Jack Newton:

And both with how your law firm ran previous to this crisis, as well as the technologies you adopted, can you just tell us a little bit about what the transition from pre-COVID 19 to post-COVID-19 looks like for your firm and maybe what changes were easy, and if there are any changes that you found to be a bit more of a struggle or that required a bit more explicit change management?

Rachel Roche:

I think the biggest change for me as a law firm owner was just to be a little bit relaxed about other people in the business working from home. I am used to working from home, I’ll work anywhere, I’ll work in the car, in between meetings. I think that’s just how you are when you’re running a business as well, be it legal or any other industry you have to just be—

Jack Newton:

You’re always on.

Rachel Roche:

And that’s fine. But then when it came to me thinking my staff are going to have to work from home, is that going to work for them? Is it going to be efficient? Are they going to get distracted while they do their work? And none of those fears have come to fruition, which is great. But obviously, I haven’t checked in with them every day, I don’t want to micromanage people, but it would be interesting to see when we do have a real roundup at the end of this, whether they’ve actually enjoyed working from home.

Melanie, who’s been with me since the very beginning, this is not usual for her; she usually works in the office. I’m very happy for her to be working from home, it seems to be all working great, but does she actually like it? Do people enjoy being at the kitchen table or their dining table all the time, and then commuting five seconds to the living room in the evening? I think people do still like the separation between work and home, and you’ve got to think about people’s mental wellbeing and mental health in all of this as well.

Jack Newton:

I do think it’ll be really interesting to see where we … Obviously, the pendulum swung, I think from one extreme where there was really not a lot of distributed law firms, not a lot of work-from-home acceptance in the legal world. We’re now in figure it out or you won’t survive, in that spectrum. And it will be very interesting to see where things normalize on the other side of this COVID-19 crisis, because I think a lot of law firms and a lot of managers that I think harbored concerns similar to what you’re outlining, do people get work done at home? Can they get their work done at home? Are there too many distractions? Everything along those lines.

I think a lot of law firms have clarity now that how people are getting work done at home, and in fact, even in some cases they’re more productive than they ever were in the office. But I think I’d be really interested to check in with you when you have the answer to some of the questions around, do people like working from home—because I think, give this a few more weeks, or maybe it turns into a few more months and do people really prefer working from home over working in the office, or are people going to be begging to return to the office, so they do get that ability to focus and also separation from work and home life?

Rachel Roche:

And I think the novelty of working from home will wear off for a lot of people who are not used to it. And that’s fine, I don’t have any plans to get rid of my physical offices, for example, but I definitely think in the back of this, I’ll be very, very relaxed about people who want to work from home. And also, just very interestingly as well, just worry we don’t have much time left, but in terms of the business generally, I think COVID-19 has really focused my mind about how I want to shape my business going forward.

So I definitely look at this from a business perspective as a real opportunity to make decisions and to make difficult decisions sometimes about how I want my firm to come out of this at the other end. For example, we have …  people that have just joined us in the last week or two, that’s very exciting. I’m feeling more confident about making decisions, because I feel like, as a newer firm, people will get us a little bit better now because they will be more open to using technology and trusting us that yes, we’re lawyers, we might be young and small, but we’re doing exactly the same work as some of the heavier hitters.

Jack Newton:

It’s phenomenal, and I think it’s such a great example of the playing field being leveled through smaller firms and technology. And maybe to that point, you’ve long embraced the cloud and other technologies to enable this distributed work and enable you to be more client-centered in how you’re delivering legal services. Do you have advice for our listeners that may be just starting to shift their practices to the cloud?

The transition to work from home in a distributed work environment was relatively painless for many firms that have already transitioned to the cloud, and some are doing effectively as an emergency disaster response right now. How do you think about advice and coping mechanisms that firms might be able to implement to better navigate this crisis and moving to the cloud in an urgent manner?

Rachel Roche:

I think it can definitely be done, but I certainly don’t envy those law firms and other businesses that are not set up to access files for instance, or information remotely. I just can’t imagine working in any other way now. And I came from a very, very traditional law firm before I set up my own practice. And if I think about the more traditional firms that I’ve worked for in the past, it certainly feels like an enormous task to get everybody using the cloud. But also, you’ve got to switch the mindset of everybody in the business to work in a different way. And that’s a huge undertaking because it’s one thing having the tech in place, but you’ve still got to teach people to use it for one and also get people to buy into that new way of dealing with things, and I think that’s the most difficult part of making any substantial changes in any business.

Jack Newton:

Rachel, to close out, what’s your main message to others, either as legal professionals or just as people at the time?

Rachel Roche:

Just relax, there’s nothing to panic about, to start with. Just sit down and really take the opportunity to make some strategic decisions about how you want your business to look when we come out of the other side of this. I think technology is key to this, along with other things—obviously tech is one thing, but humans are quite another. But this is a really great opportunity to shift your mindset and to look and consider how clients will want to be dealt with at the end of this, how your business is going to look.

So it’s an opportunity to look at everything down to the heads and who you’ve got in your team. I don’t know about anyone else, but things can get very, very busy when you’re the owner of a law firm or any business. And I do remember in the last six, 12 months thinking, “Gosh, I wish the world would stop, so I could have a little bit of time to think about what I’m actually doing here,” and now it actually has. So this is an opportunity to really take and think, “What do I actually want to do here? And what’s for the benefit of the business and the team and the clients of course?”

Jack Newton:

Absolutely, don’t panic and look at this as an opportunity is a great way to wrap up our conversation. Well, thanks so much for taking the time with us today, Rachel, especially in the evening there in the UK.

Rachel Roche:

Thank you.

Jack Newton:

Thanks for joining us on Daily Matters today, a podcast from Clio. Rate and review wherever you get your podcasts and subscribe so that you never miss an episode. Daily Matters is produced by Andrew Booth, Sam Rosenthal, and Derek Bolen, and hosted by yours truly, Jack Newton. Thanks also to Clio, the world’s leading cloud-based legal technology provider for supporting this podcast. If you’d like to learn more about Clio, please visit clio.com.